Fruit Flies

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fuki
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:03 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:44 pm


The question was not whether they need to or not, the question was whether they can. If you could do bad karma, be reborn in the animal realm because of that, and continue practicing, the Buddha would have said so. But, he never said that or taught that. That's not a Buddhist teaching.
I don't know what the Buddha said and I doubt everything he ever said has been recorded, I'm not debating whether things are Buddhist teachings or not nor can I confirm or deny that "bad karma" has anything to do with an animal birth (it might be but I can't just say "it is so" because humans have written it on a piece of paper) I've been observing Eurasian Collared Doves for a few years now, I don't see what you say that they are suffering, they are very playful, loving in their community and compared to human relations(hips) I think most humans could learn something from observing and interacting with animals. As regards to whether animals can practise, again I couldn't say that they can't, in the same way animals probably can't say whether humans can or cannot practise.
Animals do need it, because animals suffer. It's no secret that every Buddhist tradition, including zen, considers human birth to be the most beneficial for practice to end the suffering of beings. The problem with most humans is they waste this opportunity and then most of them fall back to the animal realms or hell realms because they did waste it. And therefore, continue to suffer. If one wishes for beings to stop suffering, one wishes them to have a most favorable rebirth for that, the most favorable rebirth is human.
Perhaps, perhaps not, perhaps it's only true/expediently applicable from the human situation (I know what the scriptures say yes)
Sure, but that does not mean the cats were practicing anything.
Perhaps, and again it might be only applicable to humans. and again bodhisattvas manifest as animals for sure. So no need for "practise" they only have to be. Since there is no person or self that is reborn, but merely unspent energies (karmas) provide the next form, there is no person-link from one life to the next, only energies, so wisdom/love can manifest in accordance with causes and conditions and I think it's silly (and arrogant) to suggest it always has to manifest as a human form then. Many humans are born with pure "evil" predispositions and many animals are born as bodhisattvas.

In my view the scriptures say what they say to serve expediently for humans, such is their design, they can't be held as truth in themselves, at least that's how I see it.
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Seeker242
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:56 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:03 pm
I've been observing Eurasian Collared Doves for a few years now, I don't see what you say that they are suffering, they are very playful, loving in their community and compared to human relations(hips)
You can't see why one can say they suffer? They suffer because the are still in samsara...All beings in samsara suffer...
As regards to whether animals can practise, again I couldn't say that they can't,
Master Sheng Yen says they can't. He said "Among all living beings only humans can practice". Dogen Zenji himself says "Of all births, human is best"

If one want's to pretend that they are wiser than many of the prominent Buddhist masters, of course one is free to believe that, but I certainly won't.
and I think it's silly (and arrogant) to suggest it always has to manifest as a human form then.

In my view the scriptures say what they say to serve expediently for humans, such is their design, they can't be held as truth in themselves, at least that's how I see it.
I think it's quite silly (and arrogant) to just make stuff up and consider that as knowing better than the scriptures or being wiser than the prominent Buddhist masters, like Sheng Yen, Dogen and many others. But like I said, one is certainly free to believe that about themselves, but I certainly won't.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:19 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:56 am
I think it's quite silly (and arrogant) to just make stuff up and consider that as knowing better than the scriptures or being wiser than the prominent Buddhist masters, like Sheng Yen, Dogen and many others. But like I said, one is certainly free to believe that about themselves, but I certainly won't.
I won't either.There is nothing like zen that is illuminate in the dark nighty days.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:56 am
fuki wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:03 pm
As regards to whether animals can practise, again I couldn't say that they can't,
Master Sheng Yen says they can't. He said "Among all living beings only humans can practice". Dogen Zenji himself says "Of all births, human is best"
The concept of “practice” may well be entirely a human contrivance so, of course, only humans can practice in the way humans practice. It is unclear what Dōgen is suggesting that human birth is best for, he may or may not be on the same page as Sheng Yen here.

Do you have any idea why it may be a sensible thing to say, or believe, that only humans can practice, other than that is what the Buddha taught? I don’t find the assertion to be logical or reasonable. I would call it anthropocentric.

Animals are able to learn and change their behaviors to suit their own needs and interests. Parents teach their young. Some species do this “better” than others. This is obvious. Why assume that this capacity doesn’t extend throughout the animal realm and throughout the other realms, to a greater or lesser degree, other than that we simply have no way of knowing? And, having no way of knowing, it is not appropriate to make statements such as “only humans can practice”.

How can Sheng Yen, Dōgen, the Buddha know that this is so?
I’ve heard it said that the Buddha is omniscient. That’s hard to swallow but who knows.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:52 pm

[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm
How can Sheng Yen, Dōgen, the Buddha know that this is so?
I’ve heard it said that the Buddha is omniscient. That’s hard to swallow but who knows.
It is simply known that the whole expresses himself in the one and one in the whole.

Like all for one one for all.

What does it surprises you here?

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Mason
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Mason » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:30 pm

Devas (gods/angels) are also able to practice, though they may not be as motivated as human beings.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el414.html
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:09 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:56 am

You can't see why one can say they suffer? They suffer because the are still in samsara...All beings in samsara suffer...
Oh I understand suffering, I know that it is due to clinging and resisting. Though pain is inevitable physically suffering is optional, no one compels you to suffer, as beyond the mind there is no suffering. So how can you determine who is in samsara or not, all animals, all humans? anyone who thinks that also has no clue what samsara/nirvana means.

Master Sheng Yen says they can't. He said "Among all living beings only humans can practice". Dogen Zenji himself says "Of all births, human is best"
Who asked them, and in what setting/condition, you think that answer was intended for an audience at the time or do you take all words of the masters as absolutes applying to everything and everyone, or perhaps is any reply dependend on a question?
If one want's to pretend that they are wiser than many of the prominent Buddhist masters, of course one is free to believe that, but I certainly won't.

Not at all, I'm only sharing my experiences with sentient beings/animals, that's all, nowhere have I asserted or denied the function of Buddhist teaching or scriptures and nowhere have I compared myself with others, do you have any own experiences and observations to share or only what is written in words by others, which true or not is only hearsay.

I think it's quite silly (and arrogant) to just make stuff up and consider that as knowing better than the scriptures or being wiser than the prominent Buddhist masters, like Sheng Yen, Dogen and many others. But like I said, one is certainly free to believe that about themselves, but I certainly won't.
This is all your fabrication, if anything I ever say is being auto-compared with your Buddhist theory and hearsay then who's making stuff up? apologies for sharing. :cat:
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:26 pm

[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

I’ve heard it said that the Buddha is omniscient.
Yet to experience truth all knowledge must be given up, so what here does omniscience mean?
We all have the capacity to know everything, it does not mean that one knows everything, where would you hold or store all of it? There are a lot of things a Buddha doesn't know, ofcourse a Buddha (as we all) has the capacity, so it's a matter of practise then, the idea that there's a being who knows everything on the spot is fantasy. As our mystery unfolds and expands into infinity there is no final knowledge, and no one can trace anything, no knowing is eternal nor is it owned by a specific being, as all knowledge is temporary and arises due to causes and conditions.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:14 pm

Mason wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:30 pm
Devas (gods/angels) are also able to practice, though they may not be as motivated as human beings.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el414.html
Four Lower Realms of Woe:

(2) Animal realm

I do agree that for many animals the earth is a state of "woe" not because of the animal state but because there are human (mammals) to share the earth with. Instead of being egotistical and fantasizing about a favorable rebirth to practise, perhaps just look in the mirror and stop being evil fuckers?
I mean factory farming?
Woe to you, oh earth and sea...

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:36 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:14 pm


(2) Animal realm

70088615_10156950104679425_1418654348140871680_n.jpg
70088615_10156950104679425_1418654348140871680_n.jpg (100 KiB) Viewed 428 times
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:48 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:26 pm
[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

I’ve heard it said that the Buddha is omniscient.
Yet to experience truth all knowledge must be given up, so what here does omniscience mean?
We all have the capacity to know everything, it does not mean that one knows everything, where would you hold or store all of it?
At least some of it is in the collective unconscious, of which people are unaware.
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:26 pm
There are a lot of things a Buddha doesn't know, ofcourse a Buddha (as we all) has the capacity, so it's a matter of practise then, the idea that there's a being who knows everything on the spot is fantasy.
... who is conscious of knowing everything ...

Regarding consciousness of knowledge or perception, the bandwidth of of conscious sensory perception is only about 40 bits/second, vs, 11m unconsciously. This is why intuition and "hunches" cannot be dismissed. One may know more than one knows.

(Stats from The User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down to Size. Tor Norretranders.1998.)

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:56 pm

[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

How can Sheng Yen, Dōgen, the Buddha know that this is so?
I agree, only a non-human animal can confirm this.
Again (I know it's not a popular thing to say) human religion is made by and designed for humans, so whatever Sheng Yen or Dogen said is said to and for a human to serve expediently, to say "it is so or not is not so" depends on an inquiry, and all inquiries are mind's ignorance. (something religious humans just can't seem to get)
So it's a human inquiry/fabrication and a human 'conclusion' which says zero about the non-human animal.

here's a(nother)
download.jpg
download.jpg (37.18 KiB) Viewed 423 times
hint...
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:04 pm

Spike wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:48 pm

Regarding consciousness of knowledge or perception, the bandwidth of of conscious sensory perception is only about 40 bits/second, vs, 11m unconsciously. This is why intuition and "hunches" cannot be dismissed. One may know more than one knows.
True, I left that out on purpose in formulating a response, my response was only motivated by human hopes and fears, aka omniscience, rebirth, becoming, religious ego-stuff. Whatever I need to know will come, whatever I not need to know I will not know as it serves no purpose, it's a simple as that. And some stuff I know is only functional to 'others' everything unfolds and happens naturally, as what 'others' know they only know in service to 'me' All knowledge is universal ofcourse :cat:
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:58 am

Spike wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:48 pm
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:26 pm
[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

I’ve heard it said that the Buddha is omniscient.
Yet to experience truth all knowledge must be given up, so what here does omniscience mean?
We all have the capacity to know everything, it does not mean that one knows everything, where would you hold or store all of it?
At least some of it is in the collective unconscious, of which people are unaware.
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:26 pm
There are a lot of things a Buddha doesn't know, ofcourse a Buddha (as we all) has the capacity, so it's a matter of practise then, the idea that there's a being who knows everything on the spot is fantasy.
... who is conscious of knowing everything ...

Regarding consciousness of knowledge or perception, the bandwidth of of conscious sensory perception is only about 40 bits/second, vs, 11m unconsciously. This is why intuition and "hunches" cannot be dismissed. One may know more than one knows.

(Stats from The User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down to Size. Tor Norretranders.1998.)
Believe or not there are many who worship in Buddha.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:28 pm

[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm
it is not appropriate to make statements such as “only humans can practice”.
Sure it is, that is Buddhism. Sheng Yen thought it was entirely appropriate, because that's Buddhism.
How can Sheng Yen, Dōgen, the Buddha know that this is so?
How can someone think they know better, probably know better, or even may know better than them?
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:09 pm
Oh I understand suffering, I know that it is due to clinging and resisting. Though pain is inevitable physically suffering is optional, no one compels you to suffer, as beyond the mind there is no suffering. So how can you determine who is in samsara or not, all animals, all humans? anyone who thinks that also has no clue what samsara/nirvana means.
Any being who has not attained enlightenment is still in samsara. Anyone who doesn't understand that has no clue what samsara/nirvana means. Animals, by definition according to ALL buddhist traditions, including zen, have not done so, that is why they are born as animals to begin with. If someone is going to claim they know better than all Buddhist traditions, Like I said, I find that to be what is arrogant.
Who asked them, and in what setting/condition, you think that answer was intended for an audience at the time or do you take all words of the masters as absolutes applying to everything and everyone, or perhaps is any reply dependend on a question?
The statements start a 1:25. No, it's not specific to the audience or in response to a particular question. It's just standard Buddhist teaching. It's Buddhism 101. I certainly don't take the words of some random people on a zen forum, over the words of all buddhist traditions, scriptures, various prominent masters, etc.


do you have any own experiences and observations to share or only what is written in words by others, which true or not is only hearsay.
If some random person on the internet claims something that is contrary to all buddhist traditions, scriptures, masters, etc, it's entirely reasonable to not believe that. The chances that their ideas are true, and all buddhist traditions, masters, etc. are just wrong, is virtually zero.
This is all your fabrication, if anything I ever say is being auto-compared with your Buddhist theory and hearsay then who's making stuff up? apologies for sharing. :cat:
It's not "my Buddhist theory" and I'm not the one who made it up. It's Buddhism....If someone is going to claim that their ideas are more correct or more true than ALL buddhist traditions, many prominent Buddhist masters, scriptures, etc. Sorry, but that is flat out impossible to believe and that will never happen. But like I said earlier, you are of course free to believe whatever you want. I won't be believing random people on the internet, over and above, all buddhist traditions, scriptures, various masters, etc., To do so would be nonsensical. All of which is entirely and completely reasonable.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:52 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:28 pm
[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm
it is not appropriate to make statements such as “only humans can practice”.
Sure it is, that is Buddhism. Sheng Yen thought it was entirely appropriate, because that's Buddhism.
How can Sheng Yen, Dōgen, the Buddha know that this is so?
How can someone think they know better, probably know better, or even may know better than them?
To get back to my earlier post (edited somewhat):
[james] wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

The concept of “practice” may well be entirely a human contrivance so, of course, only humans can practice in the way humans practice.
....

Do you have any idea why it may be a sensible thing to say, or believe, that only humans can practice, other than that is what the Buddha taught? I don’t find the assertion to be logical or reasonable. I would call it anthropocentric.

Animals are able to learn and change their behaviors to suit their own needs and interests. Parents teach their young. Some species do this “better” than others. This is obvious. Why assume that this capacity doesn’t extend throughout the animal realm and throughout the other realms, to a greater or lesser degree, other than that we simply have no way of knowing? And, having no way of knowing, it is not appropriate to make statements such as “only humans can practice”.

How can Sheng Yen, Dōgen, the Buddha know that this is so?
...
So, other than diversionary insinuation and the dubious declaration that “that is Buddhism”, do you have anything more you might say in answer to my questions?

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:54 pm

[james] wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:52 pm
So, other than diversionary insinuation and the dubious declaration that “that is Buddhism”, do you have anything more you might say in answer to my questions?
No, other than the fact that it's entirely appropriate to espouse standard buddhist teaching on a Buddhist forum. This is a Buddhist forum. To also insinuate that Sheng Yen is being inappropriate, when he's giving dharma talks, I entirely disagree. He is one of the most appropriate masters of recent times and his reputation is impeccable. He doesn't teach things that are inappropriate. I would also add that it's not even close to being a "dubious declaration". The idea that animals can somehow practice, is the declaration that is dubious.

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