Science

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Mason
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Science

Post by Mason » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:13 pm

I'm interested in the parallels between science and dharma. Been looking at this page for a bit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermassive_black_hole

Of course I don't understand any of it, but it is certainly poetic and awe inspiring.

I bet Joe could throw some tiles into this thread!
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Science

Post by loves' the unjust » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:05 am

wikipedia is not working in this f***ing country.
restricted site.
cooper

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Science

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:56 pm

Hmm, beautiful and deep subject, black holes.

Could we keep it simpler and discuss ...dinosaurs? And stamp-collecting? :lol:
Granted, also a complicated subject. ;)

(doing my best to be evasive in this)

On a different Astronomical topic, I started saying about 10 years ago (though I've been working on the subject since 1978), "Dark Matter Lives!". Then recently came alive the phrase, "Black Lives Matter", and I was momentarily confused. If you live long enough, you see all sorts of coincidences and contrasts.

--Joe :)


US_stamps_sheet_dinos_25c_1989_Oct1.jpg
First day of Issue, Oct. 1, 1989 (Scott catalog 2422-2425)
--
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desert_woodworker
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Re: Science

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:27 pm

Mason,

In response to your intriguing statement of interest,
Mason wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:13 pm
I'm interested in the parallels between science and dharma
I'd like to ask what you mean by "science". It would help to direct the conversation if you make this clear.

People mean different things by it when speaking informally (or maybe when speaking formally, too, which is why it's good to ask).

Sometimes what's meant is:
  • Nature itself, or a body of scientifically-obtained knowledge of Nature, or;
  • The Scientific Method
tnx!,

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Science

Post by Mason » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:34 pm

What I mean is: results obtained from the scientific method which resonate with Buddhist theory and practice.

That there is a black hole at the center of galaxies reminds me of the profound and fundamental emptiness of space and time.

What arises in dependence on another (for instance, space depends on time; time depends on space) is explained to be emptiness.

I also think that, much like koans, the entire physical structure of the universe reflects YOUR mind. All things are mythical to those whose "self" is understood to be myth.

Buddhist practice is the hero's journey into the unknown (black hole) and back again! Reminds me of the Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Science

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:26 pm

Hi,
Mason wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:34 pm
What I mean is: results obtained from the scientific method which resonate with Buddhist theory and practice.
Thank you, Mason. That's clear now.

And now, why do you want to do that?

Are you just looking for coincidences and metaphors, or do you think that neither realm -- Scientific Method, and Buddhist theory and practice -- is sufficiently descriptive or demonstrative in itself?

But, also, if the "two" are indeed concerned with different things, and come from different mentalities and application of mentation and intuition, are you comfortably un-concerned that connecting them will muddy the waters?

However, yes, certainly, have a look. See what you can see!

But the key concern for Buddhist practitioners is to practice correctly in your tradition, and to awaken at least once (I'd say).

As a working hard-Scientist who is also a Ch'an- (and, later, Zen- ) Buddhist practitioner, I came in about 1980 to be able to express something about the "two" of them like this:
  • The Awakened view of Nature and life is the view and life when and where the mind does not move (or there is no mind). And the more common Western view and life -- or the view from Science -- is when and where the mind is moving (and there seems to be a mind).
Now, what is the view of a being who can use everything freely, all our Human inheritances?:

...Such a person can view with no-mind, and can view with moving-mind, at different times, and not be hung-up by either, nor on either.

I.e., there can be a kind of "switching", where one can rise up through samadhi-state like a periscope from a submarine, make the mind move, and see like a Scientist. And, at another time, where one can submerge again effortlessly ("Dive!, dive!") down through the ice or the waters, to the deepest deep, to golden Ocean samadhi, and not be bedeviled by the previous views from moving-mind, and can again rest in our true-Nature.

I think one takes one's choice. First, one must be or become the kind of aqua-naut Yogi mentioned just above. Else, there is no choice but stuck-ed-ness in samsara (literally, "traveling"). And not even realizing one's condition of stuck-ed-ness. Ouch... .

Mixing the two views before one has been able to awaken is just doubling-up or doubling-down on the view from samsara, however. A double dose of possible poison!, ...since it's not balanced or demolished by a view from deepest samadhi, and from no-mind ...thus, Illusion or delusion times TWO, ...or SQUARED.

As I see it,

--Joe

mason wrote:That there is a black hole at the center of galaxies reminds me of the profound and fundamental emptiness of space and time.

What arises in dependence on another (for instance, space depends on time; time depends on space) is explained to be emptiness.

I also think that, much like koans, the entire physical structure of the universe reflects YOUR mind. All things are mythical to those whose "self" is understood to be myth.

Buddhist practice is the hero's journey into the unknown (black hole) and back again! Reminds me of the Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Science

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:44 pm

heart,
zenheart wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:41 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:27 pm
People mean different things ...
Say, may we compare a good translation of the Spanda Karika (a.k.a. The Stanzas on Pulsation)* to "a two-dimensional membrane vibrating in 11-dimensional spacetime", or a "string theory"**?
It's said that "Comparisons are odious". And I'd add, "and how much more so are contrasts".

Compare the things you mention if you like; some here may be interested, if you make it interesting. Do those topics have to do with Zen Buddhism?, the key thrust of this discussion group.

rgds,

--Joe

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Mason
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Re: Science

Post by Mason » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:43 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:26 pm
Thank you, Mason. That's clear now.

And now, why do you want to do that?
For fun, relaxation, humor, and seeing my dear friend Joe teach the dharma and sing his song of the stars and the planets.

Above all, to be awed and inspired by the mystery of things, as an inspiration for strong Buddhist practice.

As someone who is not yet awakened, I understand that there is a lot of danger in such questions, even in the Lounge. So I will leave it up to you, as an elder in practice, to use your discernment for how to guide me forward. Thank you! Your effort to help has not gone unnoticed. :namaste:
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Science

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:03 am

Mason,

Ouch, no, but wait. I can't hope or pretend to guide anyone anywhere, and I don't aim to.

I only write about what I know about. That shouldn't "guide", but it shows what's true for ME.

And although I teach physical-practices and physical methods since 1980, I can't teach overall Dharma topics nor guide anyone personally because I am not qualified to do that, nor have I been given the quality-control scrutiny and seal-of-approval by teachers of mine to be sure that I can do that responsibly and reliably.

I teach "Gym" (but all in the service of the Dharma). And there's more to it than what I teach! ;)

Awakening happens, and is more often than not (in fact I know of no exceptions) covered-up again in a matter of weeks or months. Fine. Those weeks and months are worth more than umteen-lifetimes of intellectual or theoretical study. Actually, there's really no comparison.

I think that very few people who are currently awake are presently typing on keyboards such as this, though. I know that I am not one. It's been a while.

But, then again, the "balance" I've written about which the Bodhisattva possesses and practices, living on the edge of samsara and awakening, is a wonderful balance. It allows "commerce" with all beings, commiseration and intimacy with all sufferers, yet comradery also with the community of archaic-Buddhism's Arhats (some say "Theravadins", but not all are Theravadins; and it's unknown how Theravada relates to the Buddhism of the mainland, as Prof. Conze expounds in his BUDDHIST THOUGHT IN INDIA).

I agree that what you call "fun, relaxation, [and] humor" are valuable. But Zen Master Dogen reminds us that life is short, time passes quickly, and opportunity is soon lost. He implores that each of us should awaken, and ...not Squander this precious Human life.

In other words, for all the emphasis that Dogen and his disciples place upon "Practice as Awakening", he implores us to ...awaken. Quite as he did!, in China, with his wonderful Ch'an teacher, Rujing, his master in the Chinese Tsao-Tung lineage.

With best regards in this new Year of the Boar,

--Joe

Mason wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:43 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:26 pm
Thank you, Mason. That's clear now.

And now, why do you want to do that?
For fun, relaxation, humor, and seeing my dear friend Joe teach the dharma and sing his song of the stars and the planets.

Above all, to be awed and inspired by the mystery of things, as an inspiration for strong Buddhist practice.

As someone who is not yet awakened, I understand that there is a lot of danger in such questions, even in the Lounge. So I will leave it up to you, as an elder in practice, to use your discernment for how to guide me forward. Thank you! Your effort to help has not gone unnoticed. :namaste:
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Science

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:41 am

Oh, hey, Mason, and others here.

There may be some GREAT fun and insights for you here: "Closer To Truth".

LOTS of diverse topics in hard Science, Biology, Philosophy, and Religion. You will find video interviews here with Scientists, Philosophers, and Religionists (the producer-fellow also has edited a book of transcribed interviews, which makes for very good reading: Robert Lawrence Kuhn, CLOSER TO TRUTH; 2000).

http://www.closertotruth.com/about/content-guide

(or, the general entry-page: )

http://www.closertotruth.com/

This site's video interviews have kept me busy for about 14 months so far, with the videos, and in reading books by some of those who are featured there.

Best!, (don't miss this stuff... ),

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: Science

Post by fuki » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:53 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:05 am
wikipedia is not working in this f***ing country.
restricted site.
If you can or are willing to spend money on it, just get a VPN service, you have them for 10 buck a month these days, and less if you pay for a whole year. ;)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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fuki
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Re: Science

Post by fuki » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:00 pm

Mason wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:13 pm
I'm interested in the parallels between science and dharma. Been looking at this page for a bit:
Last weeks I'm remembering at least 50 dreams per night, (might be due to the flue because I never remembered dreams or dreamt this much in a single night) nevertheless whatever appears is both science/dharma to me. Whatever I observe is in 'analysis' of dependend arising, I don't mean the science of tracing how things came to be, but in the very understanding of the nature of consciousness realizing I am not consciousness. :109:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Science -- Signs of Life

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:48 pm

Even from geostationary orbit above the earth, there are very clear signs that there is life on Earth.

One that shows as signs in the earth's atmosphere demonstrates in particular that there is intelligent life on Earth (even without noticing that there are cities visible on the continents):

Airplane contrails are easily seen as they spread out, and minute smoke particles in jet exhaust recruit even more ice crystals to form from humid air in the atmosphere at jet-cruising altitudes, 40000 ft, or 12 km.

Today there seems to be a particularly favorable air mass over the Pacific Ocean west of the coast of California. You'll see many contrails in the image below.

--Joe


contrails_from_orbit.jpg
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Re: Science

Post by KeithA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:39 pm

There is a book I have somewhere that looks at the Heart Sutra and Quantum Physics that might be of interest. I think there is a pdf of it floating around the interwebs somewhere.
You make, you get.

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