Attainment

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Kaya

Re: Attainment

Post by Kaya » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:17 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:53 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:01 am
In this way, Self is explained to be non-Self.
Although it may be so, such a claim is merely wonderful.
"Merely" is a diminishment. "Claim" actually may be something else. Expression of wisdom or intellectual attainment is a worthy corollary to practice.

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fuki
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Re: Attainment

Post by fuki » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:15 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:01 am
Awareness, when fabricated as Self, gives rise to the appearance of its objects as Other.

Self cannot depend on Self, but depends on Other.

In this way, Self is explained to be non-Self.
Your parents must love diner talks with you! :lol:
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Re: Attainment

Post by fuki » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:23 pm

Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:17 pm

"Merely" is a diminishment.
Yeah I had that with mom a few years back, took me a while but she now understands when I say "merely" it's not a diminishment or a rejection or something negative. just as what we call a car is just a fabrication since it merely exists as a concept but in itself there is no car (apart from its parts) or "car essence"
it's a bit like christmas or a "person", as if a persons comes out of the womb claiming "I am a person" "I'm alive for 42 years now" merely fabricated words indeed, though this year I didn't peel any christmas onions or speak of the Unborn :lol:
0f56ed9b582a684aef141846a98c7ab5.gif
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Re: Attainment

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:04 pm

Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:17 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:53 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:01 am
In this way, Self is explained to be non-Self.
Although it may be so, such a claim is merely wonderful.
"Merely" is a diminishment. "Claim" actually may be something else. Expression of wisdom or intellectual attainment is a worthy corollary to practice.
Of course it is. And a wise one, and intellectually informed, to the extent that that's useful and helpful. Practice is key. Some say samadhi is key, and I'd say that's true too. Most else is dumb-show. Although, expression and description and instruction when that's called-for is a skillful-means, and most compassionate.

You don't mean "corollary". Maybe adjunct.

Good word-study you're onto/into. How about Buddha Dharma, and its practice? That's what this discussion site is for and is all about, according to the masthead.

rgds,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Attainment

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:05 pm

Marcel, thanks for bringing it all back. And I still think the counter-attendant in Gassho looks a bit like our Guo Gu. Maybe it's the hair.

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Attainment

Post by fuki » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:05 pm
Marcel, thanks for bringing it all back. And I still think the counter-attendant looks a bit like our Guo Gu. Maybe it's the hair.

--Joe
:lol:

I did learn a lesson playing ball with you Joe, I can be a bit of a "softy" sometimes.
Being direct and to the point in your speech/approach, I appreciate.
(it depends on who I'm talking with)
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Re: Attainment

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:49 pm

Thinking about "Attainment", a moment ago... .

Attainment is un-chain-ment.

Or at least further along those lines.

Strong practice!,

--Joe

Kaya

Re: Attainment

Post by Kaya » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:50 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:23 pm
Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:17 pm

"Merely" is a diminishment.
Yeah I had that with mom a few years back, took me a while but she now understands when I say "merely" it's not a diminishment or a rejection or something negative. just as what we call a car is just a fabrication since it merely exists as a concept but in itself there is no car (apart from its parts) or "car essence"
it's a bit like christmas or a "person", as if a persons comes out of the womb claiming "I am a person" "I'm alive for 42 years now" merely fabricated words indeed, though this year I didn't peel any christmas onions or speak of the Unborn :lol:
?

Oh, my: 42 years . . what a gestation!

Kaya

Re: Attainment

Post by Kaya » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:20 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:04 pm
Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:17 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:53 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:01 am
In this way, Self is explained to be non-Self.
Although it may be so, such a claim is merely wonderful.
"Merely" is a diminishment. "Claim" actually may be something else. Expression of wisdom or intellectual attainment is a worthy corollary to practice.
Of course it is. And a wise one, and intellectually informed, to the extent that that's useful and helpful. Practice is key. Some say samadhi is key, and I'd say that's true too. Most else is dumb-show. Although, expression and description and instruction when that's called-for is a skillful-means, and most compassionate.
desert_woodworker wrote: You don't mean "corollary". Maybe adjunct.
No, because in Zen, practice is the proven way. Therefore "expression and description and instruction" is corollary.
desert_woodworker wrote: How about Buddha Dharma, and its practice? That's what this discussion site is for and is all about, according to the masthead.
No, the masthead just says "to discuss Zen Buddhism and to share our collective knowledge and experience". Plus this thread was placed in the Lounge, so to quote John Riggins to Sandra Day O'Connor, "Loosen up, Sandy baby, you're too tight!"

Inasmuch as Heart Sutra expresses Buddha Dharma: " . . . not even wisdom to attain, attainment to is emptiness . . . ", and sutra recitation is a form of practice, your criticism makes "no sense".

Leave it to moderators to make that call of what this discussion site should be all about.

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Re: Attainment

Post by fuki » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:32 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:49 pm
Attainment is un-chain-ment.
You're our dharma Joe Cocker, Joe ;)
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Re: Attainment

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:22 pm

Lot's of "no" s in your post(s), Kaya.

Maybe someday we'll see something positive, and maybe you'll initiate a thread and post something substantive sometime, and not just play the "critic" to others' posts.

(lots of "maybe" s... ).

Practice is not an axiom (nor in fact much of an object for the moving-mind of "thought"). So, there is no corollary. Q.E.D.

Adjunct(s), possibly, yes. Although, we may consider them all as parts of "practice". Zazen is just the indispensable 1/13th-part of Zen Buddhist practice, or of the Baker's Do-zen, that is.

There are more than 13 practices, I'd say, but 13 come to mind. Last we numbered them here, though, with Meido's and others' help, there were at least twice that many. And then of course, everyday-life brings a myriad.

To contribute on-topic: as far as "attainment" is concerned, it's the development of becoming familiar with our practices and making them one's own, with skill. That's a gradual process, I'd say. But awakening occurs of a sudden. This is as I see it. But maybe attainment, say, of the empty state is attainment, too. But calling it so would seem to hold it as too much of an end-point to me, while practice may actually necessarily be endless, since the Poisons rise endlessly.

--Joe

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Re: Attainment

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:54 pm

Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:20 pm
Leave it to moderators to make that call of what this discussion site should be all about.
It's about what they instituted it to be about, and that's already known.

--Joe

Kaya

Re: Attainment

Post by Kaya » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:26 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:22 pm
Lot's of "no" s in your post(s), Kaya.
As appropriate!
desert_woodworker wrote: Maybe someday we'll see something positive, and maybe you'll initiate a thread and post something substantive sometime, and not just play the "critic" to others' posts.
And maybe you were sad that Santa didn't show. You're not the one to set standards here. As far as criticism, I call 'em as I see 'em. (My PRK worked phenomenally well, and I have exceptional peripheral vision.)
desert_woodworker wrote: Practice is not an axiom (nor in fact much of an object for the moving-mind of "thought"). So, there is no corollary. Q.E.D.
Of course there is! Practice proves the Dharma! That's the actual QED part.
desert_woodworker wrote: To contribute on-topic: as far as "attainment" is concerned, it's the development of becoming familiar with our practices and making them one's own, with skill. That's a gradual process, I'd say. But awakening occurs of a sudden. This is as I see it. But maybe attainment, say, of the empty state is attainment, too. But calling it so would seem to hold it as too much of an end-point to me, while practice may actually necessarily be endless, since the Poisons rise endlessly.
No problem if that works for you, if that's what you do, if that's what happened to you, but you should try to understand that it might be different for others.
desert_woodworker wrote: But maybe attainment, say, of the empty state is attainment, too.
To me, this is a basic misunderstanding.

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Re: Attainment

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:05 am

Kaya wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:26 pm
desert_woodworker wrote: But maybe attainment, say, of the empty state is attainment, too.
To me, this is a basic misunderstanding.
Sorry to hear that may be the way it is for you, if you have practiced in our way. But, may it become clear! For all beings.

It's just a demolition, well down below the basement level. ...So that the Original then comes clear, and persistent. And can stay clear, given continuing practice, as Zen Master Dogen notes.

rgds,

--Joe


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