What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

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desert_woodworker
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What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:37 am

What to do about Zen forum moderators and controversial behavior?

Nothing. They'll do as they like. Kudos, insofar as what they do is good in general. Yet, I consider specifics.

Let bygones be bygones. Others have cleared up the situations before you, already.

If you're directly involved, do more than that, though, as might be effective. But gabbing and jawing is not efficacious. Too late!

Really do it. Not just in flat letters on a screen, 2000 miles away from wherever. Too safe, and disgusting.

If you're not directly involved, be humble, don't mumble.

Again, if you have a pal or sweetheart who wants to take up student-ship under a certain teacher, and you have dirt or info on said teacher, be sure to share it with her/him. No need to echo or amplify such concerns HERE in the abstract, or as a way of criticizing past behavior theoretically, nor... as a way of aggrandizing ONESELF.

Who was it?, Ah, our American humorist, Lily Tomlin: "Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better Past."

Sure. There may be extenuating circumstances, though. But not here!!

As I see it (along with Michael; Tnx, michaeljc)... . :namaste:

Strong practice!, in the Present,

--Joe

p.s. nonetheless, if there is gossip, and ad hominem re-visitation(s) here of past occurrences, I will not give up my membership for that and that alone. It will take something just a little bit more egregious to effect that, but I won't say what. I.e., you're not getting rid of Joe so easily!

We all know that Clyde has been one who has denied or questioned the need or value of teachers in Zen Buddhist practice, so perhaps it's naturally in-character to see that he may countenance smear-campaigns here against certain of them, even after their own sanghas have either dismissed them or countenanced their going Independent. I won't say! But I can't ignore these facts, either. Anyway, everyone, please contemplate these facts. Things are not as bad as some crack them up to be. I mean, the facts have already been addressed, handled, dismissed, and otherwise besides beaten to death in the sanghas where they have occurred (and elsewhere).

But let's let this forum be about Life. That's what I ask, as a grateful and neighborly member. I'm just one skinny Astronomer, though. A small voice in a big, dark Universe. Glad to have a mouth to open, though, for sure.

Peace!

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[james]
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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by [james] » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:45 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:37 am
What to do about Zen forum moderators and controversial behavior?

Nothing. They'll do as they like. Kudos, insofar as what they do is good in general. Yet, I consider specifics.

Let bygones be bygones. Others have cleared up the situations before you, already.

If you're directly involved, do more than that, though, as might be effective. But gabbing and jawing is not efficacious. Too late!
So why are you gabbing and jawing here, dragging up a dead thread (not that I condone any thread locks ... they inevitably fizzle out on their own in their own time). Follow your own advice. Let what’s gone be gone.
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:37 am
No need to echo or amplify such concerns HERE in the abstract, or as a way of criticizing past behavior theoretically, nor... as a way of aggrandizing ONESELF.
Again, HERE, heed your own counsel.
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:37 am
We all know that Clyde has been one who has questioned the need or value of teachers in Zen Buddhist practice, so perhaps it's in-character to see that he may countenance smear-campaigns here against certain of them, even after their own sanghas have either dismissed them or countenanced their going Independent. I won't say! But I can't ignore these facts either. Anyway, everyone, please contemplate these facts.
These are not facts. They are your opinions.

What’s this all about, Joe? It seems quite odd.

james

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:48 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:45 am
What’s this all about, Joe? It seems quite odd.
James, it's about what Clyde has drug in. If that's odd, well, yes, you have said it.

rgds,

--Joe

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by [james] » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:51 am

What? Discord in this little sangha?

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:54 am

Nite-nite,

--Joe

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by [james] » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:57 am

Good dreams.

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clyde
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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:36 am

Joe;

I take your concerns seriously. And I repeatedly examine myself and my intentions and motives.

It’s true that I’ve practiced for many, many years without a teacher (See Note below.), but I respect Zen teachers, don’t question the benefit that teachers may have, and when asked, I recommend new practitioners seek a teacher. Though neither Ed Brown nor Norman Fischer are my teachers, I’ve benefited from listening to, sitting with, and observing them. But they came into my life after 40 years of studying and practicing on my own. And as I mentioned elsewhere, I read and listened to John Tarrant, sat with him when he visited my local sangha, and had a positive experience; i.e., I have no animosity toward John and would sit with him again.

Also, I would not have accepted ownership of Zen Space if I didn’t value the Zen Way which includes Zen teachers and the special student-teacher relationship.

I will not allow personal attacks or smear campaigns. That said, I didn’t find a post linking a public letter written by one Zen teacher to another Zen teacher to be out of bounds. Yes, it’s ‘old news’, but it’s not fake news. Nor did I find the posts discussing the events surrounding Ed Brown to be out of bounds. Note that neither topic is active, so I don’t think there’s a “campaign”.

While it’s difficult to form exact rules, guidelines are helpful. Previously I posed the following:
If we were to follow a rule of no discussion of controversial behavior by Zen teachers, then the following would be the consequence:

Either, we could not mention any Zen teacher about whom there is any public controversy of any sort at any time.

Or, we could mention Zen teachers about whom there is public controversy, but delete any mention of the public controversy.

https://www.zen1.space/viewtopic.php?f= ... =20#p12068
If I were to follow the first alternative, I would delete all mention of John Tarrant and Ed Brown, and any other Zen teacher that fits the category. This seems too restrictive and unacceptable to me.

And if I were to follow the second alternative, I would allow mention of Zen teachers about whom there is public controversy, but delete any mention of the public controversy. This would result in allowing discussion of John Tarrant and Ed Brown, but deleting any references to any public controversy. It would also result in allowing discussion of Eido Shimano and others, but deleting any reference to the public controversy! This seems unacceptable to me.

I remain open to suggestions for guidelines and convincing reasons.

clyde


p.s: Yes, I initially drug this in, so it’s on me. But I also closed it.



Note: I started studying and practicing in the early ’70s in LA and the only Zen teacher in town was Joshu Sasaki Roshi at the Cimarron Zen Center (now the Rinzai-ji Zen Center). I went a few times, but didn’t feel a connection to the Roshi or the sangha. I knew about the San Francisco Zen Center and considered going north, “knocking on the door” of the Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, and becoming a monk. But I decided that a monk’s life would be too easy for me as I had nothing to renounce and a monastic life meant my needs (food, clothing and shelter, work and relationships) would all be provided, and sitting quietly came easily to me. I thought the more challenging way for me was to find my way “in the world”. (I wonder now if I was fooling myself then.) In any case, I committed to making my way as a lay practitioner and relinquished looking for a teacher.

For the next 30 years I studied, contemplated, and meditated, and I didn’t look to see what was happening in the “Buddhist world”. It was only about 20 years ago that I realized the Internet could connect me to other Buddhists and 10 years ago that I joined a local non-denominational peer-led sangha. (I’m slow.) And through the sangha met and sat with Reb Anderson, Ed Brown, Norman Fischer, Mary Mocine, Alan Senauke, John Tarrant, Brad Warner, and many other Zen teachers.

I love the Dharma, have great affection for the Zen Way, and deep respect for the Zen teachers who carry the tradition.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:54 am

Good people.

What makes us a good person or bad?

It is not that you are good when you think and say i am a good person.What matters is the practice.

If you are living zen in the way of the practice only than you may call yourself good may be.

And i've some words for clyde:

Clyde to be honest i don't like your style of deleting messages according to your point of view.

It is TOTALY mistake to take the messages if they are related with the subject or not.

Look at the zen masters do the koans related with the topic?

Do the answers which is given related with the question?

If an ordinary person gives the answer of a zen master you probably call him crazy, right?

But this is zen.Absurdness is in the spirit of zen.

You can see this both in the answers given and the livelihood of zen masters.

Todays zen masters could be like rapporteurs but ancient ones were much different.

We are not writing an article to a newspaper.

You should be open to all kind of posts and much likely absurd answers as well.

In my view, who looks for staying on topic in each thread do not understand zen.
cooper

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clyde
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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:19 am

Enver; There’s an old Zen saying:
When walking walk,
When sitting sit,
And when posting in a topic,
stay on topic.
There are good reasons for staying on topic. The first reason is respect to the member who initiated the topic. They had something they wanted to ask or discuss and it would be disrespectful and impolite to change the subject. (Start a new topic if you have an off-topic thought. This is also the cause of the occasional ‘split’ that moderators do.)

Another good reason is to help members locate topics of interest. If all threads are jumbled with off-topics, they will be of no benefit to members.

Finally, the moderators have not been strict about any rule, nor have the moderators deleted many off-topic posts. But we will delete especially bad posts.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by Dan74 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:41 am

Enver M. wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:54 am
Good people.

What makes us a good person or bad?

It is not that you are good when you think and say i am a good person.What matters is the practice.

If you are living zen in the way of the practice only than you may call yourself good may be.

And i've some words for clyde:

Clyde to be honest i don't like your style of deleting messages according to your point of view.

It is TOTALY mistake to take the messages if they are related with the subject or not.

Look at the zen masters do the koans related with the topic?

Do the answers which is given related with the question?

If an ordinary person gives the answer of a zen master you probably call him crazy, right?

But this is zen.Absurdness is in the spirit of zen.

You can see this both in the answers given and the livelihood of zen masters.

Todays zen masters could be like rapporteurs but ancient ones were much different.

We are not writing an article to a newspaper.

You should be open to all kind of posts and much likely absurd answers as well.

In my view, who looks for staying on topic in each thread do not understand zen.
No, Enver, absurdity is not the spirit of Zen. This is a grave misunderstanding. The koans are to the point, as are every Zen teacher I have met.

_/|\_

Apologies for the off-topic - perhaps better split these few posts.

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:05 am

If you don't understand the absurdness you can't understand the sword.And if you don't understand the sword you can't understand the way of the sword.
cooper

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by KeithA » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:34 pm

Sigh. If someone posts something about Shimano, et al, you can bet folks will bring up past transgressions, whether they have been involved or not. Someone posted something about Tarrant, and someone else posted a public letter about Tarrant's past.

If you do shitty things, they will continue to bubble up over and over. You make, you get. I have to deal with it with my own tradition.

This effort to sanitize the forum of all discussion of everything controversial done by people connected to Zen is seriously, to use the OP's words "disgusting". If one doesn't like the conversation, scroll on by and don't take part. Simple.

Sheesh.... :|
Last edited by KeithA on Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by Dan74 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:08 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:05 am
If you don't understand the absurdness you can't understand the sword.And if you don't understand the sword you can't understand the way of the sword.
The Gospel of Enver wrote:In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was Sword. And then came the Absurd.

I like plain speech, Friend. Direct, honest, open, to the point and not harsh. Jokes between friends can be absurd. On the internet, in the open public space, we just create confusion, if we play games like these. This is not a little closed club, but a public hub of Zen Buddhism. As it stands, to me, it is something of an embarrassment, in spite of many well-intentioned and intelligent people who are members here. I still don't understand why. Probably because I don't grok the Way of the Absword.

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by WoodsyLadyM » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:26 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:08 pm
Enver M. wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:05 am
If you don't understand the absurdness you can't understand the sword.And if you don't understand the sword you can't understand the way of the sword.
The Gospel of Enver wrote:In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was Sword. And then came the Absurd.
I like plain speech, Friend. Direct, honest, open, to the point and not harsh. Jokes between friends can be absurd. On the internet, in the open public space, we just create confusion, if we play games like these. This is not a little closed club, but a public hub of Zen Buddhism. As it stands, to me, it is something of an embarrassment, in spite of many well-intentioned and intelligent people who are members here. I still don't understand why. Probably because I don't grok the Way of the Absword.
Thanks, Dan. I so agree with you.

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:27 pm

:namaste:
cooper

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by Fruitzilla » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:35 pm

WoodsyLadyM wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:26 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:08 pm
Enver M. wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:05 am
If you don't understand the absurdness you can't understand the sword.And if you don't understand the sword you can't understand the way of the sword.
The Gospel of Enver wrote:In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was Sword. And then came the Absurd.
I like plain speech, Friend. Direct, honest, open, to the point and not harsh. Jokes between friends can be absurd. On the internet, in the open public space, we just create confusion, if we play games like these. This is not a little closed club, but a public hub of Zen Buddhism. As it stands, to me, it is something of an embarrassment, in spite of many well-intentioned and intelligent people who are members here. I still don't understand why. Probably because I don't grok the Way of the Absword.
Thanks, Dan. I so agree with you.
I have to agree here too. Clyde is not the only one who has deleted off topic posts, I have deleted quite a few too, and will continue to do so if I think posts are not in sync with the topic being talked about.
In my experience Zen speak is the least absurd of all speak. Maybe that's something to think about. Or non-think about.

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by lindama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:53 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:27 pm
:namaste:
:namaste:

Good to see you Enver. I have to agree. I have said similar in other threads. I am exhausted, I won't repeat. wheee!

In fairness to Clyde, I've observed this issued since 2009 when ZFI began... probably before tho that was my first dip into forums. I don't get the split, never have except for obvious cases. It seems a matter or seeing the lid or the bottom of the box.... not the whole box.... understanding the sword. I'd say in both cases, it's up to the observer to sit with the image, use the practice to go beyond material rationality. It's in zen. All the voices in the room. I still enouncter energies that I don't understand, can't see, which can teach. A good teacher does the same. nuff.

Originally, I came to the forum because I learned a lot and I could post speaking my dharma.... that rarely happens nowadays. Many knowledeable people posted zen writings and ancient teachers which opened doors for me.

The reference to the sword is all the more poignant coming from Turkey.

blessing,
linda

ps, Joe, thanks for passing the ball, again :namaste:

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Fruitzilla wrote: In my experience Zen speak is the least absurd of all speak. Maybe that's something to think about. Or non-think about.
Sure, to think about.
cooper

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:53 pm

lindama wrote: Originally, I came to the forum because I learned a lot and I could post speaking my dharma..
I'm learning alot too.
cooper

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Re: What to do about Zen forum Moderators and controversial behavior

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:15 pm

We will read.get the knowledge.And immediately begin to practice.
cooper

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