What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

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KeithA
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Re: What to do about controversial teachers

Post by KeithA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:15 pm

lindama wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:36 am
KeithA wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:57 pm
In what way was an open letter to a Sangha "gossip"?

When Sweeping Zen went away, I wasn't sad. It seemed to exist to have endless discussions about teacher transgressions. So, I am not suggesting we have huge threads about that particular subject. But, to be honest, I did not know about this letter and I don't see the point in whitewashing it.

Anyway, I respect the wisdom of the group. Just seems like we are being a little precious on this one.

Keith, I don't see this as "white washing". It is 20 years old. what does it serve to bring this up again. ofc, it was not gossip at the time. the world has moved on. The original discussion was in the context of koans, not reputations long gone. just saying

as I said in the beginning.... if I have learned one thing, there is nothing to hold on to.
I hear you, Linda. It is frustrating to see the same stuff bubbling to the surface over and over. It speaks to the gravity of the transgression, I suppose. But, when it does come up, it doesn’t seem correct to sweep it back under the rug.

Round and round. :115:
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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by lindama » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:21 pm

sure, yet it's a koan moment at the core

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:31 am

Clyde,

I don't think there should be such a topic or thread here. It's all covered elsewhere ad infinitum, and ad nauseum.

Again, as I opined in a private email, these things have been handled through proper channels at the time of their hottest heat, and are by now history and dead embers. They've been handled by the people directly involved.

Let's let dead dogs lie. Let them tell the truth, too, but we need not amplify or rebroadcast the rolling thunder and faded echos of the thunder peal.

This is not "hiding facts", nor doing anything of the sort. It is recognizing that continued poking at wounds that have healed is muckraking. And I think it is vile and reprehensible behavior and speech which wants to emphasize such past events and corrected situations just for abstract reasons or no reason at all other than to be able to be critical of others and to write dirt about past events here. This just seeks to exalt the presumed-critics, and is harmful to them.

Again as I have written, if one of us has a personal friend or acquaintance who is considering aligning herself/himself with a teacher who had demonstrated wrong behavior in the past, we might responsibly tell certain facts to that person, in person. To broadcast willy-nilly what we consider to be advisories or criticisms or cautions at large to the four winds in an open forum is irresponsible, bad for all parties. Let's not go there. Please!

As has been recognized here, the censuring in certain circles of certain teachers is already 'public knowledge'. Thus, it need not be echoed here.

--Joe
clyde wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:23 pm
There are dozens and dozens of wonderful Zen teachers worthy of praise. But there are a few Zen teachers, some of them well known, about whom there are credible public reports of bad behavior. It seems, at least to me, to be a disservice to hide such facts.

I agree with Joe that my naming the topic was poor. I’ll blame the lingering effects of jet lag. I was attempting and failing to be neutral. I’ve renamed the topic, “What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior”

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:38 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:31 am
I don't think there should be such a topic or thread here. It's all covered elsewhere ad infinitum, and ad nauseum.
Joe; As I said in my original OP and follow-up post, this topic is about the general principle for handling such matters, not any particular event/teacher.

If your (general) point is “Let's let dead dogs lie”; i.e., there should be some time limit on controversies, then how do you propose it should work?

But your post seems to be about John Tarrant Roshi. Please, for another example, look at the Edward Espe Brown topic (https://www.zen1.space/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573). I initiated the topic with some background on Ed and a link to my favorite Ed talk, but the very next post was from Linda about a recent minor controversy, a controversy I was aware of. Should I have not posted about Ed? Should I have deleted Linda’s post about the controversy (or your subsequent post)?

Re-read what Linda wrote about the event and making it known. Does any of this make you think differently about the general principle of allowing facts to stand or about how to handle the John Tarrant Roshi matter?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by lindama » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:04 am

clyde wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:38 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:31 am
I don't think there should be such a topic or thread here. It's all covered elsewhere ad infinitum, and ad nauseum.
Joe; As I said in my original OP and follow-up post, this topic is about the general principle for handling such matters, not any particular event/teacher.

If your (general) point is “Let's let dead dogs lie”; i.e., there should be some time limit on controversies, then how do you propose it should work?

But your post seems to be about John Tarrant Roshi. Please, for another example, look at the Edward Espe Brown topic (https://www.zen1.space/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573). I initiated the topic with some background on Ed and a link to my favorite Ed talk, but the very next post was from Linda about a recent minor controversy, a controversy I was aware of. Should I have not posted about Ed? Should I have deleted Linda’s post about the controversy (or your subsequent post)?

Re-read what Linda wrote about the event and making it known. Does any of this make you think differently about the general principle of allowing facts to stand or about how to handle the John Tarrant Roshi matter?
Clyde,
to be clear, I posted in defense of Ed Brown.... it was all over the internet. It was not some minor conflict, he was barred unjustly by any standard. People who were close said it was politics. Somebody didn't like what he said in public. I regret doing it now that it is being conflated with the current situation. I mistakenly thought that I could neutralize gossip and judgement. Perhaps you should have deleted it.

I agree with Joe and was relieved that he provided an articulate response. Asking for general principles has not been fruitful or necessary. It's also not fruitful to ask what kind of time limits there should be to let sleeping dogs lie. It is nothing short of ridiculous in my mind. Is this The Scarlet Letter? A discussion about koans went south. It seemed to be aimed at discrediting and dismissing a body of koan work based on dead dogs.. Let's get real, this is over 20 years old, no one is going to be saved, tipped off or otherwise escape some potential danger. Generalizing the question and thus the answer just won't work.

Joe is right: muckraking. As I said, there is a 20 year gap that no one is acknowledging. No one is in harms way, here or there. This is far from a white wash. In all the 3-4 years of Eido discussion on ZFI, nothing was accomplished except perhaps people worked through their own emotional turmoil.

I'd suggest you are responsible for this decision. We have made ourselves clear. As we have seen with forms, rules don't cut it in this situation. do not look to rules on this one. Controversial teachers have already been banned from this forum. Dosho Port just published an article in Patheos on Kensho/Makyo today. I'd say the title is only a hint of what he has to say relative to just sitting, awakening, makyo and koans. I couldn't help but think it explained where Jundo was coming from.

As I said first thing, if I have learned one thing, there is nothing to hold on to. That is the practice. It is key to understanding koans as more than riddles. It is key to finding peace in this dangerous world we live in.

Thank you Clyde for being the lightening rod on this. Mama said there'd be days like this.

linda

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by lindama » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:35 pm

Good morning: For better or worse, this has become a public discussion about moderation in my view.

Apart from obvious extremes and violations of decency, there are no principles that are adequate. Good practice and judgement rule. This thread was created with the John Tarrant thread in mind. It can not be separated. Should not be separated. IMO

As we see, the JT thread was seeded by this:
Caodemarte :
It may be more accurate to say that Robert Aitken requested Tarrant to sever ties in lieu of the Diamond Sangha publicly severing ties with Tarrant over differences in what or how Tarrant was teaching (clearly not in the Diamond Sangha or traditional Zen way) and Tarrant’s relationship with students. Whether or not Tarrant could be considered a Aitken dharma heir after that is a question for Buddhist ecclesiastical lawyers!
Notice the bolded part, it is a factor that goes unrecognized and misunderstood. Suffice to say, the teaching was the zen heart. Joe and I have both expressed that. Go back and read my first response. There is a lot there, seems most of it was missed about koan practice, lost in the split.

I was surprised to see the JT thread split with JT's name in the headlines. The split served to focus the controversy. It did nothing to further koans. Then the letter... The tone had shifted. In light of that, I asked that it be deleted. That is very specific. It does not need principles.

To be clear, I did not say the letter was the reason Clyde. I said...." you know what, I'd like this removed. this whole thing... memories are not selective. gossip is. .....enough"

I'd add that splitting topics can sometimes do more harm than good. I have never subscribed to split topics except in obvious cases. I think a lot is missed, life doesn't fit in neat boxes and this is not a platform for zen text book information with neat chapter and section headings. I'm not a moderator, this is not my discussion. It is my observation.

linda

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:43 pm

Clyde,
clyde wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:38 am
Does any of this make you think differently about the general principle of allowing facts to stand or about how to handle the John Tarrant Roshi matter?
Thanks for your careful and considerate reading, and your careful and considerate reply.

To this question of yours, "Does any of this make you think differently about the general principle of allowing facts to stand... ?", my answer stands:

Clyde, facts DO stand. But let them stand where they are. Otherwise, it's "Look what the cat dragged in." And I like cats. You're not talking about letting facts stand, you're evidently and demonstrably talking about broadcasting.

It's just unnecessary to provide a platform here for the amplification and broadcast of dead or dying echoes of dirt, perceived or actual.

But let a person with dirt on their minds share the dirt privately and personally as a caution or as info to/with someone who is thinking of aligning with a teacher or sangha known in the past to have been troubled or to have caused trouble by bad financial or personal dealings. "Zen Space" is not an essential, needed, broadcaster of such dirt. Let the people DIRECTLY involved handle such cautions, sanctions, and sanctimony. And, as the events in question have occurred in the past, they have already been handled. Crusaders who were not directly involved, third-parties, are ...muckrakers.

Note, in your question-sentence above -- and please understand this information, which may be new to you -- you mention a "John Tarrant Roshi matter". I state unequivocally that there is NO "John Tarrant Roshi matter". And so, there should not be here. There's past history, and new developments of growth and health. Just as in all our lives, I hope. None of that need be chronicled nor archived here. It's already Public, as has been noted.

With best wishes for strong practice!

In the Dharma,

Yours truly,

--Joe (Guo-Xiang; Tennen)

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:16 pm

To answer the question in the thread title,

Let the people directly involved handle it.

Tnx,

--Joe

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by KeithA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:25 pm

Is the suggestion that the topic of controversial behavior by teachers be forbidden?

All unicorns and rainbows then?

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:29 pm

lindama wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:04 am
clyde wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:38 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:31 am
I don't think there should be such a topic or thread here. It's all covered elsewhere ad infinitum, and ad nauseum.
Joe; As I said in my original OP and follow-up post, this topic is about the general principle for handling such matters, not any particular event/teacher.

If your (general) point is “Let's let dead dogs lie”; i.e., there should be some time limit on controversies, then how do you propose it should work?

But your post seems to be about John Tarrant Roshi. Please, for another example, look at the Edward Espe Brown topic (https://www.zen1.space/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573). I initiated the topic with some background on Ed and a link to my favorite Ed talk, but the very next post was from Linda about a recent minor controversy, a controversy I was aware of. Should I have not posted about Ed? Should I have deleted Linda’s post about the controversy (or your subsequent post)?

Re-read what Linda wrote about the event and making it known. Does any of this make you think differently about the general principle of allowing facts to stand or about how to handle the John Tarrant Roshi matter?
Clyde,
to be clear, I posted in defense of Ed Brown.... it was all over the internet. It was not some minor conflict, he was barred unjustly by any standard. People who were close said it was politics. Somebody didn't like what he said in public. I regret doing it now that it is being conflated with the current situation. I mistakenly thought that I could neutralize gossip and judgement. Perhaps you should have deleted it.

I agree with Joe and was relieved that he provided an articulate response. Asking for general principles has not been fruitful or necessary. It's also not fruitful to ask what kind of time limits there should be to let sleeping dogs lie. It is nothing short of ridiculous in my mind. Is this The Scarlet Letter? A discussion about koans went south. It seemed to be aimed at discrediting and dismissing a body of koan work based on dead dogs.. Let's get real, this is over 20 years old, no one is going to be saved, tipped off or otherwise escape some potential danger. Generalizing the question and thus the answer just won't work.

Joe is right: muckraking. As I said, there is a 20 year gap that no one is acknowledging. No one is in harms way, here or there. This is far from a white wash. In all the 3-4 years of Eido discussion on ZFI, nothing was accomplished except perhaps people worked through their own emotional turmoil.

I'd suggest you are responsible for this decision. We have made ourselves clear. As we have seen with forms, rules don't cut it in this situation. do not look to rules on this one. Controversial teachers have already been banned from this forum. Dosho Port just published an article in Patheos on Kensho/Makyo today. I'd say the title is only a hint of what he has to say relative to just sitting, awakening, makyo and koans. I couldn't help but think it explained where Jundo was coming from.

As I said first thing, if I have learned one thing, there is nothing to hold on to. That is the practice. It is key to understanding koans as more than riddles. It is key to finding peace in this dangerous world we live in.

Thank you Clyde for being the lightening rod on this. Mama said there'd be days like this.

linda
[I drafted this last night, but make it a practice not to post late at night. Obviously there’s more to consider this morning, but I’m posting this to show my thinking . . . as of last night.]

Linda; Yes, you were clear in your posts about Ed that you were defending him (and I agreed with you). My point was that the controversy was raised, members wrote a few posts about it . . . and it was over. And look at the John Tarrant Roshi topic. Members wrote a few posts about it, including noting that is was “old news” (20 years) . . . and it was over.

My question about time limits was ridiculous. It was meant to show that public facts, including uncomfortable facts, remain facts. We change over time, but “I am the owner of my actions, heir of my actions, . . .”

I vaguely remember the Eido Shimano topic at ZFI, but I agree with your characterization that “In all the 3-4 years of Eido discussion on ZFI, nothing was accomplished except perhaps people worked through their own emotional turmoil.” (emphasis added) Actually, that’s an accomplishment. Personally, I appreciated having the links to publicly available source materials, so I could be as informed as I wanted to be; but I don’t remember having much to add to any discussion.

It’s here, this topic, where I asked for members views on “What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior”, where all the ‘heat’ is.

Yes, I’m responsible for the decision. Yes, you and others have made yourselves clear. I’m inclined to let the posts in both Ed’s and John’s topics stand. And because “rules don't cut it in this situation,” I’m open to further discussion and reconsideration, now or whenever.

clyde


p.s: I read Dosho Port’s article, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxze ... makyo.html . Thank you. It was an interesting read and if you have anything to say about it, you could start a new topic. But I don’t see how it relates to this topic.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by Dan74 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:52 pm

Regarding the Shimano discussion, I recall there were many suggestions (including in the media) that it had helped blow the whole thing wide open, while there have been many who for years tried to hush it up and keep the status quo.

There are many epithets flung around like muck-raking, dirt on their minds, etc. while all that's been done is post a link. I suggest we each own our dirt and not project it on others.


_/|\_

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:04 pm

lindama wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:35 pm
Good morning: For better or worse, this has become a public discussion about moderation in my view.

Apart from obvious extremes and violations of decency, there are no principles that are adequate. Good practice and judgement rule. This thread was created with the John Tarrant thread in mind. It can not be separated. Should not be separated. IMO

As we see, the JT thread was seeded by this:
Caodemarte :
It may be more accurate to say that Robert Aitken requested Tarrant to sever ties in lieu of the Diamond Sangha publicly severing ties with Tarrant over differences in what or how Tarrant was teaching (clearly not in the Diamond Sangha or traditional Zen way) and Tarrant’s relationship with students. Whether or not Tarrant could be considered a Aitken dharma heir after that is a question for Buddhist ecclesiastical lawyers!
Notice the bolded part, it is a factor that goes unrecognized and misunderstood. Suffice to say, the teaching was the zen heart. Joe and I have both expressed that. Go back and read my first response. There is a lot there, seems most of it was missed about koan practice, lost in the split.

I was surprised to see the JT thread split with JT's name in the headlines. The split served to focus the controversy. It did nothing to further koans. Then the letter... The tone had shifted. In light of that, I asked that it be deleted. That is very specific. It does not need principles.

To be clear, I did not say the letter was the reason Clyde. I said...." you know what, I'd like this removed. this whole thing... memories are not selective. gossip is. .....enough"

I'd add that splitting topics can sometimes do more harm than good. I have never subscribed to split topics except in obvious cases. I think a lot is missed, life doesn't fit in neat boxes and this is not a platform for zen text book information with neat chapter and section headings. I'm not a moderator, this is not my discussion. It is my observation.

linda
Linda; I’ll address some matters you raised before addressing the core issue, “what to do”.

You wrote,
Notice the bolded part, it is a factor that goes unrecognized and misunderstood.
I didn’t miss it or misunderstand it, and I don’t assume others did.

I split the topic because as Joe noted in what became the initial post of the John Tarrant Roshi topic:
Ouch. All this is far off-topic of Mason's thread, here. Apologies for our straying.
And I thought John Tarrant Roshi was worthy of a topic in Zen People. He’s an influential Zen teacher. As I’ve noted, I’ve read some of his writings, watched some of his videos, and sat with him. I didn’t split the topic to create controversy or to relive an old controversy.

Also, you didn’t request deleting the topic until immediately after Friend posted the link to Aitken Roshi’s letter.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:09 pm

Let the people directly involved handle it. Let's not encourage this site to handle third-party machinations of the unnecessary kind.

"Working through" stuff is fine for people who must do that, but this is not a psychotherapy site (I hope). Everything in its proper and competent place (I hope).

--Joe


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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:10 pm

If we were to follow a rule of no discussion of controversial behavior by Zen teachers, then the following would be the consequence:

Either, we could not mention any Zen teacher about whom there is any public controversy of any sort at any time.

Or, we could mention Zen teachers about whom there is public controversy, but delete any mention of the public controversy.

I’m not comfortable with those choices.


p.s: Joe, as careful as I am with language there is always the potential for misunderstandings. My use of “the John Tarrant Roshi matter” was intended to be a neutral way of pointing to our discussion of “what to do”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:20 pm

clyde wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:10 pm
p.s: Joe, as careful as I am with language there is always the potential for misunderstandings. My use of “the John Tarrant Roshi matter” was intended to be a neutral way of pointing to our discussion of “what to do”.
Right, Clyde.

As there's no such "matter", there's nothing to do. And I suggest we do exactly that, here. Nothing. And don't host such stuff. It's already Public.

But, as I've written two or three times, advise friends and acquaintances as we will, and as we feel we must, in-person with them. THAT could be relevant. Muckraking in the open is not.

Stuff in print can always be misused, and can misconstrue. Let's not provide an opening for that. Let the people directly involved handle it. That's "what to do". If you're directly involved, handle it: take responsibility. If not, let those involved handle it. No need for such hosting here, i.e.

"Q.E.D.", ;)

:namaste:

--Joe

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by clyde » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:36 pm

Joe; Are you suggesting that the forum follow the second alternative:
we could mention Zen teachers about whom there is public controversy, but delete any mention of the public controversy
So, we allow discussion of John Tarrant Roshi, but delete any references to any public controversy? And the same for Edward Espe Brown? And we allow discussion of Eido Shimano, but delete any reference to the public controversy? Really?!
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by KeithA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:43 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:20 pm
clyde wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:10 pm
p.s: Joe, as careful as I am with language there is always the potential for misunderstandings. My use of “the John Tarrant Roshi matter” was intended to be a neutral way of pointing to our discussion of “what to do”.
Right, Clyde.

As there's no such "matter", there's nothing to do. And I suggest we do exactly that, here. Nothing. And don't host such stuff. It's already Public.

But, as I've written two or three times, advise friends and acquaintances as we will, and as we feel we must, in-person with them. THAT could be relevant. Muckraking in the open is not.

Stuff in print can always be misused, and can misconstrue. Let's not provide an opening for that. Let the people directly involved handle it. That's "what to do". If you're directly involved, handle it: take responsibility. If not, let those involved handle it. No need for such hosting here, i.e.

"Q.E.D.", ;)

:namaste:

--Joe
Another strategy, available to all, is just scroll on by and don’t participate. The mods monitor for spurious content, us regular Joes can pick and choose which threads we choose to take part in. “Problem” solved. :105:
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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by lindama » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:57 pm

Apologies to Jundo and others for any misunderstanding.

My comments could be misunderstood:
Controversial teachers have already been banned from this forum. Dosho Port just published an article in Patheos on Kensho/Makyo today. I'd say the title is only a hint of what he has to say relative to just sitting, awakening, makyo and koans. I couldn't help but think it explained where Jundo was coming from.
this is what I wrote to Clyde:
you can certainly delete it if Jundo wishes. I am not hinting at any misconduct. Pls apologize to Jundo....

my point was IMO Jundo was banned for his views and arguments on Soto, as far as I understand. Guo Gu requested he be reinstated. It did not happen. Reading Dosho's article says a lot to me about how to practice with this.
I'll add, in my view, none of these situations are isolated.

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:07 pm

I can buy the proposition to leave the 20yr old news to google, though seeing the SZC letter discharging Tarrant increases their credibility for me, as did the SFZC letter on the Brown issue. Since the Ed Brown issue is more recent perhaps that is a more relevant example. His language as reported would be inappropriate in a Nichiren/SGI setting, likewise I would not visit or practice in any zen sangha that accepted it so I much appreciate the publicity. As a consequence, I spend a lot of time listening to SFZC material.

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Re: What to do about Zen teachers and controversial behavior

Post by Caodemarte » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:19 pm

Could I point out that the Tarrant discussion came about only be because he was cited as a Dharma heir of Aitken in the Diamond Sangha tradition without mention of the obvious problems with doing so? No one was lying in wait to suddenly attack him.

I am not sure how Ed Brown was dragged into this. But looking at the various public letters there is no claim of bad actions, abusing students, or distorting the Soto tradition while misleading students even by the complainant so it does not turn me off. Others are perfectly free to make a their own decision based on their own judgment.

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