KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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bokki
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KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm

well, in the face of the danger of being accused of hallucinating, holding and grasping, being non-Buddhist, seeking, and what not..
i will once again raise the question, one raised a numberless times, well, this is a zen forum after all..
KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?
after some thinking, and being aggressive in my last posts, i would like to write and would love to hear, about experience, or thoughts
of KENSHO.
in as short as i can...:
i went to japan twice, solely for the purpose of practising zen.
on my first sesshin, i realised mu, and answered most, not all, the follow-up questions.
this proved to be a big, big problem for me.
my thoughts: well, this was easy, this is not what i thought it will be, if this is zen enlightenment, it really is overrated.
i continued with koan training, some were clear, with some i struggled with.
so much was my doubt, that i asked the head priest, am i doing poorly with dokusan, he assured me im doing fine..
i asked the teacher, is my meditation poor, he laughed, and said, just continue..
that did not end my doubts.
sadly..i gave up, the doubt grown, that i said to myself, this is all a charade..about what, ok mu, koans, yes, but enlightenment?
so i returned, basically gave up, sat from habit, or love for sitting, or just to..well..meditate..
many bad and good things happened, just the usual lay life of folks..my meditation dwindled to a few hours a week
then, about 6 years after my return from japan, one morning while making up my bed, i had a true, deep realisation.
buddha was not lying! i wept, in gratitude, for all. won't go into details .
a few smaller ones after, like the one when a storm began, and i went to close the window blinds in the living room, but stopped in the kitchen to make a snack, returned to my room, remembered, oh the blinds, went back, entered the living room...the blinds were down, closed.
that sight, of the closed blinds opened up another, smaller, kensho.
why am i sayig this?
just to remind you that Buddhism is about enlightenment, and zen is also.
im sorry for to much words, or if these words are not of help, i hope they cause no harm.
please forgive me.

would you write anything on your thoughts, or experience, of kensho? i would be grateful.
thank you.




.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:50 pm

bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm
KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?
after some thinking, and being aggressive in my last posts, i would like to write and would love to hear, about experience, or thoughts
of KENSHO.
In athletics, I never had a problem with immodesty. Loved Terrell Owens! Shine on, in your brief moment. Circumstances are different here, and that might be a problem. Enough said.
bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm
i went to japan twice, solely for the purpose of practising zen.
on my first sesshin, i realised mu, and answered most, not all, the follow-up questions.
this proved to be a big, big problem for me.
Oh my goodness, yes, I think I understand. Somehow you went off-track, perhaps resulting in a look, maybe a compassionate smile, and then the bell. Perhaps a skillful teacher can guard the rails next time towards solving this.
bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm
then, about 6 years after my return from japan, one morning while making up my bed, i had a true, deep realisation.
buddha was not lying! i wept, in gratitude, for all. won't go into details .
I agree that discretion is best. This is a matter to discuss with a teacher.
bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm
why am i sayig this?
just to remind you that Buddhism is about enlightenment, and zen is also.
This could prompt a lot of 'zen' comments. (Eg:) Imo, it is what comes after the door opens.
As I recall, Dan74, described how shikantaza can become problematic for some if the door is still closed.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:39 pm

hello,

It is said in the book of tao that to understand the law of nature is enlightenment.

For me, there is two choice;
1-You understand the teaching
2-or not

and not have another choice.

Teaching is Emptiness

Yet for my thoughts emptiness which is the way of eagle; is just (like) sleeping mode.
It is name is on its own; Awakening

Sorry can't imagine further.

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:57 pm

ok, enver,but did you, or can you, find a zen teacher, in Ankara or close, maybe Istambul....just asking, me friend, maybe you could...
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:15 pm

As I recall, Dan74, described how shikantaza can become problematic for some if the door is still closed.
agree, not only a problem, can , and does one to cause to invent a new sect. and im saying this as a soto ordained, and if sitting, shikantaza is what i sit.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:05 pm

bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:57 pm
ok, enver,but did you, or can you, find a zen teacher, in Ankara or close, maybe Istambul....just asking, me friend, maybe you could...
What will a zen teacher do/add to me if I don't practice and why do I need a zen teacher if i do practice? thank you

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:17 pm

if you do not practise zen, you clearly do not need a zen teacher. if you do practise zen, everyone will help, because, in zen, the core is passed on by a teacher.i know, i am wild by nature, contrarian, but, in zen, one can not pass, if no teacher, no pass. i know, who is anybody to judge me, ye, ok, but that is just like it is in zen, maybe i will talk more, or, u just acsept..
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:27 pm

What will a zen teacher do/add to me if I don't practice and why do I need a zen teacher if i do practice? thank you
..
thank you...may i ask you?..plz? why are you practising anything? i mean, anything. ...?
old friend, why are you practising, anything, even white light, why are you doing this or that?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:44 pm

What will a zen teacher do/add to me
just rob you, highjack your thoughts, leave you poor, with no idea about a single thing, leave you dazed and confused, still yearning for a bone...if a fake, he will bend backwards to accommodate you, and then some.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:46 pm

kindly, I'm going to bed

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:23 pm

bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:17 pm
if you do not practise zen, you clearly do not need a zen teacher. if you do practise zen, everyone will help, because, in zen, the core is passed on by a teacher.i know, i am wild by nature, contrarian, but, in zen, one can not pass, if no teacher, no pass. i know, who is anybody to judge me, ye, ok, but that is just like it is in zen, maybe i will talk more, or, u just acsept..
In our first meeting at the forum i had asked you if you are a zen master? i don't know if you remember.Are you a zen master?do zen masters are wild characters generally i don't know
may be in out looking inside i believe %100 cotton

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:27 pm

KENSHO.?may be the dream of a zen master :113:

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:46 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:27 pm
KENSHO.?may be the dream of a zen master :113:
Understandable from a non-Buddhist perspective.

Always good to be skeptical and have a doubt. But to be fair, this doubt deserves an effort to be resolved. And that is exactly what a zen teacher can address.

Please note the addresses for two zen teachers, Meido and Genjo, below. Either can help, if you are sincere in pursuit of truth.

Meido: https://www.korinji.org/

Genjo: https://choboji.org/

Just copy your comment about kensho being a dream, send it via email to the contact address at the websites, and then, maybe, share the response, if you get one?

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:54 am

Thank you Spike i've raised the question to chobo-ji temple, will inform you if i get a reply!!

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Larry
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Larry » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:00 am

Spike wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:50 pm
As I recall, Dan74, described how shikantaza can become problematic for some if the door is still closed.
Is it really Shikantaza if the door is still closed? Or just fake it till you make it?

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:08 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:00 am
Spike wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:50 pm
As I recall, Dan74, described how shikantaza can become problematic for some if the door is still closed.
Is it really Shikantaza if the door is still closed? Or just fake it till you make it?
There is no door in shikantaza.
Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Shikantaza cannot be problematic.
How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 pm

[james] wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:08 pm
Larry wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:00 am
Spike wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:50 pm
As I recall, Dan74, described how shikantaza can become problematic for some if the door is still closed.
Is it really Shikantaza if the door is still closed? Or just fake it till you make it?
There is no door in shikantaza.
I'm surprised to hear you admit it. But that was not the reference in the first place.
[james wrote: Shikantaza cannot be faked.
That is hilarious.
[james wrote: How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?
That is so zen.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:29 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 pm
[james wrote: Shikantaza cannot be faked.
That is hilarious.
Nothing hilarious about it. Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Spike wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 pm
[james wrote: How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?
That is so zen.
It’s a simple question. How does he go further?
Not kensho, that’s for sure.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:47 pm

[james] wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:29 pm
Spike wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 pm
[james wrote: Shikantaza cannot be faked.
That is hilarious.
Nothing hilarious about it. Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Spike wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 pm
[james wrote: How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?
That is so zen.
Re: The Zen of Everything

Post by Dan74 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:49 pm
. . .
The underlying theme of Jundo's that I do take exception to is his constant underplaying of the kensho. Without kensho, many people give up practice after years, admitting that they had no idea what they were doing and wasted a lot of their time. Why just sit if one can just clean the house, just help the neighbour in the garden, just read a story to the kids? . . . Dogen himself arguably taught that shikantaza only makes sense after the awakening. It is not a Soto vs Rinzai thing . . . Kensho is just the beginning.

I am not going to waste my time interpreting the above for anyone.
[james] wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:29 pm
It’s a simple question. How does he go further?
Not kensho, that’s for sure.
That is as may be, but for me, you're not the one entitled to ask it.

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:15 pm

thank you friends, heya james.
enver
i don't know if you remember.Are you a zen master?
i love your sense of humour, it was funny then, and it is now.
KENSHO.?may be the dream of a zen master
do u consider Siddhartha, Bodhidharma, Joshu, Xu Yun, Hakuin, Dogen, and all the zen practitioners, and masters dreaming?
if so what is the reason you are interested in Buddhism, zen?

james.
There is no door in shikantaza.
Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Shikantaza cannot be problematic.
How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?
do you remember when you started shikantaza, was it the same as it is now?
Not kensho, that’s for sure.
well, that is what im talking about.
what is it then, james?
if you have stepped off the 100-foot pole, please say what is the purpose of Buddhism.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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