For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.
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loves' the unjust
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For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by loves' the unjust » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am

Avisitor has said that :"Common mistake of Zen Buddhist practice is to believe meditation is to stop thought"

Avisitor we can talk here under this thread.
Could you clarify your words here.

There is three possibility in zen practice, as far as i can see.Stopping thoughts, watching thoughts and using thoughts

Which one is your practice?
cooper

Kim
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:08 am

Enver M. wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am
Avisitor has said that :"Common mistake of Zen Buddhist practice is to believe meditation is to stop thought"

Avisitor we can talk here under this thread.
Could you clarify your words here.

There is three possibility in zen practice, as far as i can see.Stopping thoughts, watching thoughts and using thoughts

Which one is your practice?
Rinzai zen-teacher called John Denko Mortensen, who took up dzogchen after decades of getting trained as a zen-teacher, said in dharma talk given in 2012,

"While zen-masters say weird things, dzogchen-people actually explain things".

When it is done well, explaining is good. Recommend listening to Sokuzan Brown. He is quite civilized when it comes to 1. zen, 2. buddhism and 3. vajrayana. See Sokukoji-channel at Tube.

Btw. I wonder what happened to Denko? He used to be active at ZFI.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by loves' the unjust » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:55 am

Awareness is prior.
cooper

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Dan74 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:34 pm

Kim wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:08 am
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am
Avisitor has said that :"Common mistake of Zen Buddhist practice is to believe meditation is to stop thought"

Avisitor we can talk here under this thread.
Could you clarify your words here.

There is three possibility in zen practice, as far as i can see.Stopping thoughts, watching thoughts and using thoughts

Which one is your practice?
Rinzai zen-teacher called John Denko Mortensen, who took up dzogchen after decades of getting trained as a zen-teacher, said in dharma talk given in 2012,

"While zen-masters say weird things, dzogchen-people actually explain things".

When it is done well, explaining is good. Recommend listening to Sokuzan Brown. He is quite civilized when it comes to 1. zen, 2. buddhism and 3. vajrayana. See Sokukoji-channel at Tube.

Btw. I wonder what happened to Denko? He used to be active at ZFI.

Zen teachers don't 'say weird things' in my experience. Rather, they are very much to the point.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:41 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:55 am
Awareness is prior.
That is not a buddhist view, rather advaita interpretation. In buddhism there is no awareness apart from mind phenomena, i.e. thoughts. Thoughts are dharmakaya. If this is not seen directly, there will always remain a duality between awareness and thoughts which is why meditators falsely believe that thoughts need to be stopped.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Nothing » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:34 pm

Yes, it is true as avisitor said that meditation is not about stopping thoughts.

When thought arises and we try to stop it or fight it, one will only create more thoughts. It is enough to recognize or be aware of the thought and let it go and return to the method of practice.

If we do not feed them they can not exist on their own, so they will disappear on their own. Indulging in thoughts, fighting or trying to stop them or get away from them is feeding them and therefore feeding and making stronger the delusional ego-self complex.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by lindama » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:56 pm

Avisitor speaks truth. I dunno, the image I have this morning is a snake curled up silent, still and aware, then suddenly it lurches towards an object. it's not the thought, it's the lurching.

Denko had an excellent zen/dzogchen audio, I think on his website.... it was several hours long from a retreat. this was long ago. it would be good to find it.... it was a wonderful tapestry with zen and dzogchen threads.

linda

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by loves' the unjust » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:19 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:34 pm
Yes, it is true as avisitor said that meditation is not about stopping thoughts.

When thought arises and we try to stop it or fight it, one will only create more thoughts. It is enough to recognize or be aware of the thought and let it go and return to the method of practice.

If we do not feed them they can not exist on their own, so they will disappear on their own. Indulging in thoughts, fighting or trying to stop them or get away from them is feeding them and therefore feeding and making stronger the delusional ego-self complex.
Very enlightening.

Gassho
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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:33 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:56 pm
Denko had an excellent zen/dzogchen audio, I think on his website.... it was several hours long from a retreat. this was long ago. it would be good to find it.... it was a wonderful tapestry with zen and dzogchen threads.

linda
Yeah, those teishos were somewhat unique. Sokuzan Brown discusses zen and vajrayana all the time, (student of Trungpa). I checked Denko's website 1-2 years ago last time. It no longer mentioned anything about dzogchen, which it did before. Apparently he also changed his name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havredal_Zendo

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:15 pm

Maybe Avisitor is having no-thoughts?

I do hear many people complaining about too many thoughts and believing they are trying to make that particular phenomenon stop. It is a common mistake. Then they start spiraling into frustration and despair. What's happening in these cases, is thought is the only thing they are aware of, when theres so much more going on. It's like complaining that you can't see the whole sky because there is that one tiny cloud in it.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm

Another common problem among all kinds of meditators is to sit in subtle fogs believing that's correct recognition. Very common in zen too.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:38 pm

Kim wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm
Another common problem among all kinds of meditators is to sit in subtle fogs believing that's correct recognition. Very common in zen too.
hehe - yes that's what the adamantine razor is for
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:55 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:38 pm
Kim wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm
Another common problem among all kinds of meditators is to sit in subtle fogs believing that's correct recognition. Very common in zen too.
hehe - yes that's what the adamantine razor is for
Is that joke or do you mean something specific?

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:46 pm

Kim wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:55 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:38 pm
Kim wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm
Another common problem among all kinds of meditators is to sit in subtle fogs believing that's correct recognition. Very common in zen too.
hehe - yes that's what the adamantine razor is for
Is that joke or do you mean something specific?
The mind is naturally drawn to bliss, this is how you or I got into a subtle fog to begin with. It's highly possible to sit in a subtle fog and sincerely believe it is recognition, exactly because it is blissful. Shinzen Young calls this "The Serenity Trap." But a hypothetical or mythical blade that can cut through anything? This symbolizes is the very real awareness one has to rouse - somehow - to move beyond the seductiveness of bliss. Only razor-sharp discernment can see that even bliss consciousness is nonsense, when compared to the realization that our entire frame of reference is but a speck of dust. In other words, we are simply going to die, never knowing. People mistakenly believe samadhi to be a state of mind, but if you read what I've just written, its the ability to rouse the concentration required to get out of the fog. In Buddhism, samadhi simply means concentration, and when you're back is against the wall (or facing a wall) it forms rather naturally. Or maybe it's about how much one suffers, how much you or I suffer, and whether or not we are sincere in that we desire to see ourselves and the same "being" that suffers when others suffer. Right concentration, means concentration that arises out of reflexive survival needs (impending death), not pumped up through our egos, because it's the shedding of self, the illusion of separateness. Right Effort means no effort, because every effort has already been given. At that point effort is gone. I hope this makes more sense. Certainly anything i put here is open for comment, right?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:20 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:46 pm
The mind is naturally drawn to bliss, this is how you or I got into a subtle fog to begin with. It's highly possible to sit in a subtle fog and sincerely believe it is recognition, exactly because it is blissful. Shinzen Young calls this "The Serenity Trap." But a hypothetical or mythical blade that can cut through anything? This symbolizes is the very real awareness one has to rouse - somehow - to move beyond the seductiveness of bliss. Only razor-sharp discernment can see that even bliss consciousness is nonsense, when compared to the realization that our entire frame of reference is but a speck of dust. In other words, we are simply going to die, never knowing. People mistakenly believe samadhi to be a state of mind, but if you read what I've just written, its the ability to rouse the concentration required to get out of the fog. In Buddhism, samadhi simply means concentration, and when you're back is against the wall (or facing a wall) it forms rather naturally. Or maybe it's about how much one suffers, how much you or I suffer, and whether or not we are sincere in that we desire to see ourselves and the same "being" that suffers when others suffer. Right concentration, means concentration that arises out of reflexive survival needs (impending death), not pumped up through our egos, because it's the shedding of self, the illusion of separateness. Right Effort means no effort, because every effort has already been given. At that point effort is gone. I hope this makes more sense. Certainly anything i put here is open for comment, right?
Bliss arises because there is dirt in the system. It is a side-effect but also a useful pointer, when one knows what it is. I wasn't really thinking of bliss when I replied above but subtle dullness.

Heightened concentration, right.

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:17 am

Enver M. wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am
Avisitor has said that :"Common mistake of Zen Buddhist practice is to believe meditation is to stop thought"

Avisitor we can talk here under this thread.
Could you clarify your words here.

There is three possibility in zen practice, as far as i can see.Stopping thoughts, watching thoughts and using thoughts

Which one is your practice?
We can talk but I seem to like what everyone else here has said
Dan74, Great Sage EofH, Kim, Lindama, Nothing (name dropping here in alphabetical order)
I am grateful for their contributions to my education.

I don't stop thoughts, watch thoughts or use thoughts as a practice.
In my mind, I am still a beginner.
The parallel given by the seeing the moon in the bucket of water was shared with me.
The moon being like our true nature is seen through the reflection of the water in the bucket
But, can be only seen clearly when the waters are calm
So, I was instructed to watch my breath go in and out
If I get carried away by thought to bring myself back to the watch my breath go in and out
Not stopping thought, not following thoughts or get lost in thought but to let it go.
This calms the mind much like letting the water in the bucket calm so the moon can be seen
And this practice is what I do.

Don't know if this is called Zen practice.
It is what I do when I have time

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:05 am

avisitor wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:17 am
Enver M. wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am
Avisitor has said that :"Common mistake of Zen Buddhist practice is to believe meditation is to stop thought"

Avisitor we can talk here under this thread.
Could you clarify your words here.

There is three possibility in zen practice, as far as i can see.Stopping thoughts, watching thoughts and using thoughts

Which one is your practice?
We can talk but I seem to like what everyone else here has said
Dan74, Great Sage EofH, Kim, Lindama, Nothing (name dropping here in alphabetical order)
I am grateful for their contributions to my education.

I don't stop thoughts, watch thoughts or use thoughts as a practice.
In my mind, I am still a beginner.
The parallel given by the seeing the moon in the bucket of water was shared with me.
The moon being like our true nature is seen through the reflection of the water in the bucket
But, can be only seen clearly when the waters are calm
So, I was instructed to watch my breath go in and out
If I get carried away by thought to bring myself back to the watch my breath go in and out
Not stopping thought, not following thoughts or get lost in thought but to let it go.
This calms the mind much like letting the water in the bucket calm so the moon can be seen
And this practice is what I do.

Don't know if this is called Zen practice.
It is what I do when I have time
That sounds like my Zen too

:waving:

:110:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Kanji » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:59 am

[quote="Great Sage EofH


Only razor-sharp discernment can see that even bliss consciousness is nonsense, when compared to the realization that our entire frame of reference is but a speck of dust. In other words, we are simply going to die, never knowing.
[/quote]

Very sharp, this is my understanding, also. Bliss is an illusion, but then isn't everything? :hatsoff:

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by avisitor » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:27 pm

Kanji wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:59 am
Bliss is an illusion, but then isn't everything? :hatsoff:
From what I just read, it sounds like there is much that will prevent one from reaching the truth
Such things include "Bliss"

Don't think I have gotten that far ... :555: :106:

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Re: For Avisitor...Is Zen thinking of no-thought?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:17 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:27 pm
Kanji wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:59 am
Bliss is an illusion, but then isn't everything? :hatsoff:
From what I just read, it sounds like there is much that will prevent one from reaching the truth
Such things include "Bliss"

Don't think I have gotten that far ... :555: :106:
Well, that's why i preferred not to go into the piles of words, it leaves the wrong impression. Truth is right in front of us. I remember back in the day a TV show "Sing Along with Mitch" where the lyrics are posted with a bouncing white ball that jumps from word to word, from left to right (like playing Mario Bros) and you sing those words. The adage became "keep your eye on the ball" - and so it goes - the "ball" we keep our "eye" on is ever-moving. Impermanence. Everything else, no-self, suffering, the end of suffering, all follow accordingly. Simple, but it's not what the whole world believes.

:559:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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