Void in the Head

All things related to beginning Zen Practice. Here is where to exchange information between those that have already started Zen training and those planning to do so.
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fuki
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by fuki » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:55 pm

Once a Vinaya Master named Fa-Ming asked: "Do most Ch'an Masters fall into the void?"

The Master replied: "It is only you who fall into the void!" Fa-Ming, shocked, asked: "Why do you say I am the one who falls into the void?"

The Master replied: "The Sutras and the Sastras are merely words, written with ink on paper -- just empty contrivances! Creating words and phrases of the Dharma based merely on something one has heard is also empty. Thus, if you grasp at and are attached to written or spoken words and phrases of the Teaching, you will, without doubt, fall into the void."

Fa-Ming then asked: "And, Ch'an Master, do you also, fall into the void?"

The Master replied: "No, I do not fall into the void."

Fa-Ming asked: "Why not?"

The Master replied: "All words and phrases (of the Dharma) are produced by Wisdom, the great function of which appears right before us. So where is there any void to fall into?"
https://www.ymba.org/books/entering-tao ... ing-record

ps Joe, as mentioned before the "vortex" fella, "is" Larry. ;)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:41 pm

hi, Marcel (good to see you posting again; hope the flu has "flown!"),

When everything stops, for weeks, months, or longer, there is void. "Void" compared to WHAT?! Void, compared to ...what you think you feel NOW.

When nothing moves, and cannot be made (forced... ) to move, then is one -- then, one is -- dwelling in true Emptiness.

But "dwelling" is not itself a static, cloistered, or reclusive existence! It is a state in which one has the status of knowing and enjoying no boundaries within all of Nature (the Universe, and all of everyday life). There is then just ONE being, ...if that many.

And again, NOTHING moves. Remarkable. And there is only true Wisdom and true Compassion arising, both, instantaneously, spontaneously, and simultaneously, in seamless response to events, conditions, and Beings, JUST as they present themselves. So I've been saying a long time... .

This is usually the result of an awakening with teacher and sangha, say, in an intensive practice situation, like 7-day Ch'an Retreat, or 7-day Zen sesshin, or longer practice periods (14 days; 28 days; 49 days; 90 days).

As I see it,

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by fuki » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:19 am

Hi Joe, grazie, yes pretty much flown just enjoying a tail of it.

I know what you mean yet if such words are taking literally there is the danger of (dualistic) interpretation, for clearly the voidness that is the absance of appearance is no other then whatever appears, since there is no agent or owner of feeling/thought etc whatever appears is no other then the emptiness mother (dharmakaya) Awakening (to me) is not the absence or presence of anything but seeing things as they are, which automatically includes the inabitility to identify or grasping of 'movement' duality or non-duality also does not touch it.
"Void" compared to WHAT?! Void, compared to ...what you think you feel NOW.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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fuki
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by fuki » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:15 am

ps it just hit me "void in the head" is an epic name for a band formation, perhaps in a 'next' life eh, anyone's "life" :113:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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KeithA
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by KeithA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:29 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:15 am
ps it just hit me "void in the head" is an epic name for a band formation, perhaps in a 'next' life eh, anyone's "life" :113:
Well, there was Richard Hell and the Voidoids!

:101:
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

avisitor
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by avisitor » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:54 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:02 pm
Indeed, in the awakened state or awakened condition, it is difficult or impossible to cause a thought to arise, and there is no need for such. There is then also no mind, no self, and no suffering; there is then only true Wisdom and true Compassion.
Is it true that all the other stuff said about the "awakened state"
should be left out (other than there is true wisdom and compassion) so that no one sees it as the point of aspiration????
Sort of like hearing the answer to a koan and then using it as one's own.

I don't know.
But, upon hearing there is no thought in the awakened state, I find myself thinking about it to the exclusion of other teachings.
Am I wrong to bring this up?
Sorry, still a beginner looking in from outside the glass.
Thanks for your patience.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Void in the Head

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:27 pm

av,
avisitor wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:54 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:02 pm
Indeed, in the awakened state or awakened condition, it is difficult or impossible to cause a thought to arise, and there is no need for such. There is then also no mind, no self, and no suffering; there is then only true Wisdom and true Compassion.
Is it true that all the other stuff said about the "awakened state"
should be left out (other than there is true wisdom and compassion) so that no one sees it as the point of aspiration????
Sort of like hearing the answer to a koan and then using it as one's own.

I don't know.
But, upon hearing there is no thought in the awakened state, I find myself thinking about it to the exclusion of other teachings.
Am I wrong to bring this up?
Sorry, still a beginner looking in from outside the glass.
Thanks for your patience.
Well, I won't say yes, and I won't say no.

This is just something that you read somewhere, and exactly here.

But, yes: In the awakened state, for weeks and months there are no discrete thoughts; they cannot even be forced to form. This is one mark of the awakened state. We won't enumerate nor describe them all. This is a big one. In a week or so (less?) following the sudden awakening, one can have come to trust true Wisdom and true Compassion in most or all situations, in the total absence of any discrete thoughts.

Thoughts -- on second thought -- are just delusion. Now, since the persistent awakened state is not the state of delusion, well, you please do the rest of the Math about how present or prevalent "thoughts" may be in the awakened state! :lol:

Since one gets along so well without discrete, delusory thoughts, well, we'll not elevate them to normalized status. Not in the awakened condition, no.

Reading about the awakened state is merely WONDERFUL. To make it a practical wonder, however, you/we must practice (and awaken), oneself/yourself (obviously):

There's no appropriating another's true Wisdom, another's experience, nor another's true Compassion. That's for sure. So, no worries.

Granted, there's a lot of other "things" a practitioner must slough-off, too, besides things she/he has read. Time's a-wasting. I mean, the game-clock is ticking, and I think it's past half-time!

best,

--Joe

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